Message:
Subject: Problems of vapor phase refrigeration??
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 07-01-2005 19:42

Ripped from your phase-change page and numbered for ease of responce:

Why wasn't vapor phase cooling of PCs a success? Reasons include:
1)High price of manufacturing
Limited upgradability. The cooling system of a vapor phase cooler is a closed circuit, and normal users can't tamper with it. So, the

Replies:
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 07-01-2005 19:55

Sorry for the first botched post.
Ripped from your phase-change page and numbered for ease of reply:


Why wasn't vapor phase cooling of PCs a success? Reasons include:
1)High price of manufacturing
2)Limited upgradability. The cooling system of a vapor phase cooler is a closed circuit, and normal users can't tamper with it. So, the "cold plate" that is in contact with the CPU can't be changed by the user. This limits upgradability, due to the frequent change of slot/socket format of current CPUs.
3)High noise. The compressor is usually rather quiet (not louder than a regular fridge), but the cooling system - due to its high heat production - requires powerful (and therefore loud) fans.
4)Ecological and economic issues. Vapor phase cooling systems use a lot of energy, which makes them expensive to run.
5)Freon-based cooling systems are bad for our planet's climate, since Freon aggravates the greenhouse effect as it reaches the atmosphere. There is enough energy being wasted already, and enough gases that harm our climate are being emitted, so having normal PCs add to these effects certainly isn't desirable.


1)you get what you pay for.
2)What? this shows you know very little about it. You never would want to 'open' the closed loop system. And they are constantly making new socket kits that fit all the old units, making them future proof for upgrading, just the oppisite of what you say. You don`t change the cooling tip, just the socket kit. You`ll never buy a better cooling system.
3)only the Vapo LS is 'loud' but it`s also the biggest baddest cooling system being made to the market today. The rest of the Vapochill phase-change line is less noisey then standard air cooling with all the case fans needed with them.
4) only an idiot would reliece freon to the air. Any A/C tech with half a brain would recover it if and when service is required. Saying it will just go into the air on it`s own is irresponsable.
5) so your not going to buy any refigs anymore either?? Or ride in an air conditioned car, bus, house, plane. ect??

I realy think you need to do a review of some NEW phase-change units, your view will widen some.
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 07-01-2005 22:02

..and why do you have review of phase-change machines that are not on the market anymore?? They were sold decades ago... That tech is old. Asetek has made huge stides in the ease of opperation, head design, chillcontrols, firmware, upgradeability, support with an excellent forums and on-line support forms. http://forum.vapochill.com/
You are basing your opinions about phase-change tech on very old units that were inefficiant and unreliable, really they have come along way sence then. You are a cooling system guide site.....You owe it to yourself, and your readers to know the whole truth about Vapochill phase-change cooling. You`re seeling yourself and your readers short by missinforming them!! Read some reviews yourself, inform yourself, then your readers.
http://www.hothardware.com/viewarticle.cfm?articleid=565&cid=9
http://www.systemcooling.com/vapochill_ls-01.html
http://www.xtremeresources.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=2006&page=1 <MACH II no longer available
http://www2.technobabble.com.au/article190.html
http://www.nforcershq.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2012
That is just a smaple of the reviews out there, hardly looks like it wasn`t a success!! Really man, get with the program here!! You`re a heat sink guide site, review one already!!!
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 08-01-2005 15:29

Tillmann-
Why don`t you respond??
lyou are spreading missinformation about phase-change!
How would it look if the only recommendations you made for AMD a64 processors were based only on the same SLOT A 800MHz chip your phase-change experiance is based from??? Would that be acceptable journalism??
Would you be doing your readers a good turn by advising them about products that are no longer on the market, or old out of date tech??
By: Tillmann (IP: 83.121.1.*)
Written on: 08-01-2005 15:41

Hi,

dude, chill out... your feedback is welcome, but you bring it in a more polite and less agressive form.

Now, to your points:
1) I think not. What you pay for is the good feeling that your machine is faster than everyone else's. It's emotional and about the pose value; seen under a rational point of view, vapor phase refrigeration doesn't provide a good price/performance ratio.

2) Ok, you have a point here; ASEtek should be given credit for the interchangable head system that gives at least some upgradability. I will update the article concerning this. But keep in mind that an head system upgrade costs more than an entirely new cooling system using more conventional technology.

3) Vapor Phase coolers are in any case louder than coolers with other technology (e.g. watercoolers) optimized for low noise. A good water pump is quieter than a compressor, and when using a good passive radiator, no fans at all are required.

4) At some point (may it be in 10 or in 20 or in 500 years), the gas once produced _will_ be released to the atmosphere. If after a few years, the compressor fails, most people will probably not invest in having a 5-year old cooling system repaired, and just throw it away. A used computer is less likely to be recycled properly (and checked for cooling gases) than a fridge. It's unlikely that someone will bring a 10 year old computer to an AC tech for recycling. And even then, AseTek uses uncommon cooling gases (in some cases a mixture of two gases), so even if someone retrieves the gas from the unit it is unlikely that it will be properly recycled afterwards.

Also, consider this: A vapor phase refrigeration system uses around 150W (possibly more). If every single PC in the USA was equiped with a vapor phase cooler, and used for 8 hours a day, then TEN additional nuclear power plants (1 gigawatt each) would have to be built just to provide power to the cooling systems. That is totally insane. Vapor phase cooling is an ecological disaster. So yes, I am biased and against it, but for a good reason. Concerning the comparison with fridges -- just the fact that we use the same technology for fridges doesn't make it right to use it for everything. Having no fridge would substantially effect the quality of my life, having no vapor phase cooled PC doesn't.

Concerning a review:

Sure, if AseTek sends me a unit free of charge (which is what KryoTech did) I'd happily review it.

Of course the AseTek units are more modern than the KryoTech units I reviewed; but I still consider the KryoTech parts more advanced (at least the "regular" units, not the Renegade) - they cooled to lower temperature, guaranteed you a certain temperature, and guaranteed you a certain overclocking speed.

bye,
Tillmann
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 08-01-2005 16:02

A Vapochill XE is as near silent as water cooling. Granted, nothing will be as quite as passive cooling, and it`s not really fair to compare the two, but the PE, XE and SE are near silent. The loudest thing in my case is the HDDs.
Again with the power consumption, I think you`re basing your opinion on the old tech, Really, I have several of them...and they run off the computers power supply, they require 12amps max at start up on the 12v line. Power consumtion = volts x amps so it uses a max of 12 x 12 = 144 watts at start up and 6 x 12 = 72 watts running. But it removes up to 180 watts of heat from the CPU. Running off the computers power supply they can`t suck up that much money running.
A Vapochill will assure you the highest possable OC you will be able to acheave with any after market cooling alternative. It is not for everyone, but if your the kind of person who loves to OC and wants to get every last MHz you can from your chips, then a Vapochill is just what you need. You can buy cheaper chips and run them at faster then the fastest chips on the market...for example, I have an a3500 ($250.00 chip) I`m running at faster then FX55 speeds and performance. A FX55($865.00 chip) costs more then the Vapo did, so I saved myself money in the long run as I`ll be able to transfer this cooling system to the next combo I buy as well.
If your into OC`ing, it`s a great investment.
I do know someone who is selling a 6mo old used Vapochill XE in a Titanium case unit with a spare chill control panel for reasonable, maybe you owe it to yourself to check it out. I think you`d be pleasently suprised by the advancments that have been made in the last 10 years.
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 08-01-2005 16:37

From your phase-change page..
"Their "VapoChill" systems do not cool the CPUs to temperatures as low as the original KryoTech system,"
This too is not exactly true, a Vapo LS will cool down to below -50.0c, and will help to get more extra MHz then the whole 900MHz rig you tested. I`ve OC`d XP chips more then 1GHz over stock speeds using a vapochill.
By: Tillmann (IP: 83.121.1.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 02:17

Hi,

I have updated and extended the Vapor Phase Refrigeration article.

bye,
Tillmann
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 16:42

Thank you for that.
But I wish you would also add that there is a small group of a hard core extreme OCing community that uses them to help push the envolope of CPU, memory and MB tech to the edge. It`s really because of this group that MB manufaturers are now adding in all the OCing options and windows programs to their equipment. OC`rs show them what fails on the equipment and they fix it for the next round of boards, they help drive the whole tech into the future.
These units are not ment to be in ever single home, there really is no need to have one unless you are overclocking. Projecting them into every single home is unrealistic. We don`t have OCers in every single home. If you`re not into OC`ing, you don`t need one.
Also mentioning that the tech is used to take slower cheaper chips and run them at speeds faster then the fastest chips on the market too would help to inform your reader why exactly people would buy them. They will help you acheave the highest OC you will be able to reach, that and just thermal acceleration makes the CPU faster, colder electrons travel faster, straighter, and with less resistance, thus less heat as well.
This added with the fact that the heat from the CPU is no longer being blown into the inside of the case loweres the whole system internal temp as well.
The only beef I see you still have is the erginomical stuff, but really, freons can be recovered and recycled, even if mixxed. I`m not saying that every single phase change owner does the right thing, but I don`t know of one person who has relieced the freon to the air, why would they?? Their unit would be junk when they did.
I appreciate you changing the page, and hope you can change it a bit more.
Thanks again.
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 20:46

also, the pic you have on that page is really old, maybe you could include a pic or two of the newer Vapochills, they offer them in a stand alone system you build into your existing case, and in an all in one case design. If your going to expain the tech and the units, might as well do a good job of it.
Thanks.
By: Tillmann (IP: 84.57.12.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 22:17

Hi,

I think that even though the picture is outdated, it illustrates very well the technology. Recent systems (except maybe for the really exotic multistage units) use exactly the same technology. Having the cooling unit in a separate case doesn't really make a difference, it still works the same way :-)

My goal with this site is not to show the latest and greatest products; my goal is to explain and illustrate the basics of cooling, and provide a critical view of various technologies, instead of just saying something like "Wow! It cools to -50C! It runs at 4GHz! It gets 454235 points in XyzMark3000!", like many other websites do.

Concerning your remark about how overclockers push technology - this is true to a certain extent; the best example is watercooling: It started with a few enthusiasts milling their own waterblocks, a few started selling their products, then Asian manufacturers started producing watercoolers in higher volume, and now even mass market manufacturers like Apple ship watercooled PCs.

As you have noticed, Watercooling is something that isn't yet covered here - but will be, in the future. Right now I'm working on an article about heat pipe technology, it will be published in the next days. A watercooling article will follow later.

However, I think that all these readymade products have, in a way, taken the fun of overclocking. I used to be a die-hard overclocker (that's why I originally made this site) starting from the days of 486 CPUs; back then it was quite complicated to get the motherboard to provide unusual voltages or clock speeds; nowadays you just set it in the BIOS - how boring :-).

"Overclocking as a mass penomenon" has also lead to quite a few undesirable developments; like motherboards that are shipped with noisy and unnecessary chipset / voltage regulator fans, and manufacturers concentrating on adding overclocking features instead of making their boards reliable and durable (think of all those Abit boards with super overclocking features, where the capacitors failed after a few years...).

Just my two cents...

bye,
Till
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 23:17

I hope everyone`s 2 cents worth is welcome, even if it seems more like a buck and a half.

"My goal with this site is not to show the latest and greatest products; my goal is to explain and illustrate the basics of cooling, and provide a critical view of various technologies, instead of just saying something like "Wow! It cools to -50C! It runs at 4GHz! It gets 454235 points in XyzMark3000!", like many other websites do."

But if your goal is to show the latest greatest, phase-change is it as far as aftermarket cooling. You don`t have to recommend it, just asking you to give it a better shake then what you are. Is there any other cooling that will allow, say a 3.02 intell to run at over 4.5GHz with ease??

"Recent systems (except maybe for the really exotic multistage units) use exactly the same technology. Having the cooling unit in a separate case doesn't really make a difference, it still works the same way :-) "

It`s not in a separate case, it`s all in one case, it`s in a top secton of the case and the cooling tube reach down to the CPU. The only thing that`s the same between the old ones and the new Vapochills is just the basics of A/C itself. EVERYTHING else has changed. Evaporater designs, condensers, electronics to control the pump speed, boot temp, hold temp, fan speeds, heaters controls to fight condensation, ect.
Like I said, these units have come sooo far sence you reviewed those old things, you really owe it to yourself to check one out for yourself.
Where are you located? If your close at all, I`d really like you to check one out.
By: Rukee (IP: 24.196.133.*)
Written on: 09-01-2005 23:29

Okay, I`m sorry, I missread your post, I totally overlooked you saying you did NOT want to have the latest greatest products... my bad.

By: H2gO (IP: 222.152.25.*)
Written on: 10-01-2005 05:57

Rukee - stop bettin up on the dude
However I do agree with your proactive points

Cheers all
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